How do large Slovak eCommerce projects use email marketing? What platforms do they work with and what results do they achieve? And how do you even start with email marketing? Vladimír Darák, CEO of Vielendark, answers these questions and more in an interview with well-known Slovak consultant Michal Král as part of his project "Eshopový kráľ" (Eshop King).
CEO of Vielendark, Vlado Darák, has been focusing on marketing, eCommerce, and marketing automation for over a decade. After this period, he accepted an invitation from Michal Král, a well-known online business consultant, for his very first public interview as part of the Eshopový kráľ project. In the more than hour-long dialogue, they discussed topics such as automation, segmentation, and personalization in email marketing. Here, we present a summary of the most important points from the interview.
What is the main difference between the most basic level of email marketing and the extremely advanced one that you do for top clients? How would you describe it in terms of expected results?
The simplest forms of email marketing involve a project creating an email, for example, through Mailchimp and sending it out. And that's where it ends. The project might not concern itself with whether the email reached the customer, whether it was opened, or whether it had any impact. The project is happy because an email was sent. Almost anyone who watches a five-minute YouTube video can do that. However, as the project grows and its database expands, the added value of email marketing from a sales and numbers perspective also grows. This allows someone at the client’s end or an agency to spend more time on emailing. And when we have more time and a larger database, we expect real sales results. This is where the analysis factor comes into play, which may not necessarily bring better results but at least gives us feedback—whether email marketing is profitable or not. Whether we are making any progress. And once we have numbers, we can move on to simple segmentation, automation, or personalization.
So, while a regular newsletter is received with a fixed text, the same for the entire database, when we move higher, we use a more advanced platform that collects data on customer behavior, and we can include, for example, a range of personalized products in the email. That’s a very simple way of personalization. One person receives blue overalls, while another gets red ones, because I know their color preference. Or we can work with basic segmentations, such as gender, age, or last purchase, and tailor the content accordingly. But to be able to tailor the content, I cannot create just one version of the email. I have to create two, three, or more. And also review them afterward.
The time investment in the process is thus much higher, and therefore it must make sense for the brand. And when we move on to large brands that have an entire team of people for email marketing, we also have to address the technical side of things. What is our spam score? Are we receiving high complaints from email service providers? How does Google view us? Are our emails displayed correctly on all devices? From a layman's perspective, emails might look the same at all levels, but in terms of the work behind them, the difference is significant. And the difference we can make with such changes in the context of a half-million database is several dozen to hundreds of orders.
Regarding the size of the database, what do you consider to be high or low numbers? Is there a minimum number of contacts for which it makes sense to handle it more sophisticatedly?
It makes sense even from a database size of one. But, of course, it doesn't make sense to invest huge amounts of money into it. However, it's good when a person or company starting with email marketing has the right expectations. And these can be set based on the size of the database. Let's imagine I'm a brand that has been on the market for a while and has other well-established channels, making a turnover of 100,000 monthly with 1,000 orders of an average value of 100 euros, and suddenly I decide to do email marketing. Based on my experience, two situations can arise. The client already has a database but hasn’t done anything with it, or the database doesn’t exist at all. One has a database of zero and the other, for example, 10,000. Now, for the one with a zero database but a turnover of 100,000, it’s obvious that email marketing will work for them, and they should start working on it. However, they cannot expect it to make money in the first month or even the first year.
So I have some benchmarks for turnover, orders, and average order value. At the same time, I know the client's monthly traffic, and from that, I can infer what the database growth might be. If I'm at zero and have 10,000 visitors a month, the database growth might be around 5%. So I get 500 new subscribers a month. Over a year, that's 6,000, starting from zero. After a year, I send out the first newsletter. I send it to 6,000 people. And I wait. I've invested a lot of time and money, collected the database all year, and now I have 6,000 contacts. That's quite a lot, isn't it? We don't know. Now I send an email to 6,000 people. Out of the database, maybe 4,000 are active, out of those 4,000, 30% might open it, which is 1,200 people. Of those 1,200 people, let's say 10% click through, which is great. That's 120 people. If my e-shop has a conversion rate of 2%, then out of those 120 people, two or three will buy. So I worked the whole year, and three people open it, and I earned 300 euros? The feedback is that it's not worth it, and I give up. But with an increase of 500 people a month, it could be 12,000 contacts in a year, 18,000 in two years, and as the brand grows, the database will grow faster. And after a few years of working on it, it will be a 20,000 or 30,000 database. And those are databases you can work with. The second example is when someone has a database of 10,000. They can expect some results from the first moment and should expect them based on a similar formula to what I mentioned. In reality, it will differ, but in the benchmarks we use, the differences are not that big. So with a database size of one—great, start small, try it out. It will help you a lot in setting up processes; at the very least, it will get you into the habit of creating emails, and the database will grow. The numbers will show, but it will take a long time. And when you already have a database, for example, of 10,000, those are numbers that can really bring back what you need. And in this case, the database, of course, grows. And the bigger you are, the more it grows with you. For hundred-thousand-sized databases, it's already a very interesting channel, which I often see bringing 20 to 30% of revenues in e-commerce projects.
Which email marketing and automation platforms do you work with and why?
Historically, I started with Exponea, now known as Bloomreach Engagement, which has never been solely an emailing platform. It's actually a platform for collecting customer data, providing a 360-degree view, segmentation, and automation. One of its features is emailing. My whole mindset is therefore shaped by how Bloomreach Engagement works, and I am most satisfied with it. If I could, I would use it for all projects. But I can’t because it's not suitable or cost-effective for every project. We, therefore, looked for a way to secure something similar, at least from the campaign execution standpoint, if not from data analysis. Through all the testing we did, the Czech platform Ecomail turned out to be very good. I’ll explain why.
Not because Ecomail is significantly better than other platforms. But when choosing a platform, it must be user-friendly. That's the most basic requirement. Because there are so many platforms. All have great websites and perform their functions somehow. But some do it in an extremely complicated and not at all client-friendly way. What they all have in common is that they have excellent salespeople who can sell the platform.
To return to the original question, we work with the Bloomreach Engagement platform, where we are also a certified partner, and simultaneously with Ecomail. With this setup, we can cover the entire spectrum of clients we have. Both of these companies are quasi-local, so it’s possible to communicate with them and get the right support.
You mentioned that email marketing becomes interesting and cost-effective starting from about 10,000 contacts. What tactics would you recommend for quickly increasing the database?
First and foremost, I would recommend everyone think about this even before they start sending emails. Often, I come to a project, and the database doesn’t exist, even though it could. Or it is fragmented, and consents are missing. The first step is to build the database. We all know that in the last step of the checkout, there’s a small marketing consent for receiving marketing news. Almost everyone has this contact collection system in place. So, the first piece of advice is to have it organized, think about it, or consult someone to set it up correctly. And once I decide to start sending emails, at least I’ll have these contacts. These are all people who have already bought from me. And these are the most valuable contacts because, in addition to their email, I also know what they bought from me, when they bought it, and for how much. And I also have their consent to communicate with them. That’s the greatest asset I can have.
I don’t want to create a hierarchy among subscribers, but if there were one, this would be the top tier. Because this person has already shown interest in buying from me, trusted what I’m selling, and I can continue working with them. That’s a natural way for the database to grow. But care must be taken to ensure that contacts don’t end up in a limbo. People often ignore the consent in the cart. Some text is placed there, either copied from another e-shop or automatically inserted by the platform, but the text or appearance of the consent can be modified. These can be simple UX A/B tests or changes in text formulations in compliance with GDPR. For example, instead of “I agree to receive marketing communication,” we can ask, “Would you like to receive interesting offers and discounts from us?” That’s something that can bring more subscribers.
Additionally, there are best practices that many e-shops follow, such as “Give me your email, and I’ll give you something in return.” This is often done through pop-ups, which almost all e-shops that work on building a database use. “Give me your email, and I’ll give you a discount.” “Give me your email and your first name, and I’ll give you a discount.” “Give me your email, first name, phone number, and date of birth, and I’ll give you a discount.” I wanted to illustrate that it’s not just about the email but also about some additional information that people often provide when they want a discount. Some people don’t like these practices, and if it doesn’t align with the brand, I understand that. The database can be built in other ways. It can be done through social networks if there is a strong community there. Or through online webinars. Even offline, if the brand has physical stores. Today, it’s quite common to ask for an email directly in the store or suggest to the client that I will send the invoice digitally if they give me their email. We save the environment, and they get a discount. So, in most cases, if emails aren’t being collected, it’s because the e-shop or brand doesn’t have a system for it. And no one oversees that system.
When a pop-up appears, what percentage of people typically fill it out?
Based on our project experiences, it should be around 5%. It usually revolves around this number.
Is that percentage based on showing the pop-up only to those who haven't been to your site before, or to everyone?
If you have more advanced tools that can distinguish this, then it is shown only to those. Of course, there’s an issue with cookie banners—if a person rejects them, I can’t recognize them, so I show the pop-up again. But in principle, yes. You show it to those who haven’t agreed yet, meaning they haven’t subscribed. Or you show it to those who haven’t closed it more than twice, so as not to annoy them. But essentially, these are all new visitors from whom you need an email.
Typically, it’s a discount on the first purchase.
It can be. But it can also be a contest or an e-book, which used to be very popular, although we don’t see it as much now. It’s always something in exchange for something else.
What model has proven effective for you in contests?
It depends on the e-shop itself and whether it aligns with their communication. Essentially, it must be sufficiently motivating for the person to provide their email. We have some best practices that we use, but often we encounter situations where what works excellently for one client doesn’t work at all for another. A very good example is that gamification elements like the wheel of fortune worked excellently for some projects. Though it may seem like a gimmick, when we tested it on several projects, the subscription rate sometimes increased three to four times. From a benchmark of 5%, it suddenly became 12%.
Weren’t those emails less relevant?
They were, but not five times less relevant. It was still worth it. And if there’s a double opt-in, meaning a check to see if the email is really valid, then only the real ones end up in the database. So, when those 12% go through the double opt-in, the final product is about 7%. Those who approved the double opt-in and thereby increased the quality of the database still shop the same way. But what I wanted to say is that the same principle—the wheel of fortune—was tested on another project. I was sure it would work, but the result was zero. Nothing. The result was exactly the same as a static, boring pop-up banner.
What do you attribute that to?
Different target audience, slightly more serious brand communicating more content-based messaging. It didn’t work here. I don’t see this as a failure. I see it as learning something new and being able to move forward.
How does communication work with you when setting up an email strategy?
Clients usually contact us in two situations. Either they haven't dealt with emailing at all and haven't focused on customer retention, or they are already doing it but aren't sure if they are doing it right or wrong. They feel stuck in the whole process. I attribute this to the market not yet being mature in this area. When we have PPC campaigns, a PPC specialist handles them; SEO is done by an SEO specialist; social media is managed by social media specialists. But emailing is done by whoever in the company wanted to take it on or knows how to write. There still aren't many emailing specialists in the market.
So these are the types of clients who contact us. Next, we need to determine the suitability of the process. This depends on whether we can quantify the benefits of emailing. We talked about examples where an e-shop makes 100K but has a database size of zero. In such cases, the client must be prepared not to be in profit, and maybe not even next year. At the very least, we set realistic expectations. And it doesn't matter if they have a zero or a 50,000-sized database. If they don't have internal processes in place and don't believe that it will eventually be profitable, it's pointless.
Once we understand why we are doing it, we select the platform. Of course, I recommend the platforms we work with, but if they specifically need something else, we look for other solutions. However, I recommend everyone to do a proof of concept. As I mentioned, all these platforms look great. But in practice, if someone doesn't enjoy working with it, they will start sending emails less frequently—first once every two weeks, then once a month, until they give up altogether. Therefore, it’s essential to give it a few months and then evaluate if the platform suits the project, product, and especially the team working with it.
A proof of concept costs money, so we usually choose a platform right away. Then we implement it with the client, so it's crucial for them to be prepared to handle it technically. I emphasize that developers need to be ready for this. If the client uses a commonly available platform like Shoptet, I might choose Ecomail, which already has a plugin, making the entire implementation a one-click process. During the technical implementation, we also work with the client on the strategy, focusing on what we will do. We have found that working on a project basis works best—setting it up so that it’s not an endless task. We establish a project to test whether the email concept will work. This can last several months, usually three, and during this period, we design how everything should look, function, and which automations make sense for the project. From the first week, we send emails and collect contacts.
It works on two lines. One line is the emails themselves, which are created and sent. This is the simpler part because creating and sending an email isn’t that complicated, and that's not where the highest added value of a partner lies. Many e-shops can handle this internally. What is more important is guiding the client, setting up processes, habits, and knowing which numbers to look at. The partner’s help is invaluable here. So after three months, the client can say, “Wow, I can now plan this, I know when it works or doesn’t work.” We are happy to pass on this know-how and move on to the next project.
How often do you encounter e-shops doing email marketing but not ssing UTM parameters, so they can’t track results?
Many platforms already handle this for you, automatically adding UTM tags. This is the advantage of simpler solutions—you don’t have to pay as much attention to it. But regarding UTM tags, today in analytics, you might not see how much email marketing is bringing in, even if you include them. With changes in cookie tracking, not all data comes through to analytics.
How have changes in data tracking affected you?
These changes have had a significant impact. When evaluating email marketing, we monitor certain metrics—the most basic ones being open rates and click rates. What happened in recent years, introduced by Apple, is that if you use their mail app, it directly blocks information on whether you opened the email or not. Email providers themselves will also block this. So we completely lose the open rate metric, which is extremely important for email marketing.
It's important to know the health of the database, whether people are opening emails at all, and to show Google that we are not sending emails to irrelevant contacts. Google should be happier with us. But even Google can eventually block this information. So we will lose the open rate, the most basic metric. We need to prepare for this by optimizing the health of the database using other metrics.
We will start looking at how people are clicking through, monitoring the click rate instead of the open rate. But click-throughs from emails are not as frequent as email openings. So I might have people in the database who open and read the emails but don’t click through. And I won’t know that. Therefore, we will need to combine various data sources to profile the database, whether it's click rates, behavior on the website, or purchasing behavior.
What approach would you recommend for segmentation and personalization in email marketing?
Segmentation can be at two levels. One is hygiene, segmenting the list to avoid sending emails to those who don’t open them. Most tools have this preset, or it’s easy to create. This significantly increases the open rate. That’s technical segmentation. From the perspective of personalization, it’s about sending a more personal message or increasing sales. If it makes sense from the brand’s communication perspective to create different segments and create different content for them, go for it. Even with a smaller database, why not. The performance of such newsletters, however, depends on the brand and usually varies by small percentages. So if I don’t have a large database where those percentages really mean something, I wouldn’t personally go for it.
I encountered a project with a fairly large brand that was successful. They were extremely fragmented in their database. There was a team creating newsletters, which then went to a larger marketing team for review, through management, so it took a whole day of work for one newsletter. That’s a lot. When I analyzed the results at the beginning of the project, I found that some segments consisted of 200, 300 people. It didn’t make any sense. A lot of time was invested in creating content that was sent to 300 people. I tried to change the thinking to create a newsletter containing offers for those interested but also something for others.
What would you recommend automating?
I would recommend automating everything. I’m quite pro-AI and don’t see it as an apocalypse for good people in marketing. In the context of what we do, when we automate scenarios, they are common ones triggered by user actions on the website. For example, visiting a particular page triggers an action, such as sending an email. This is scenario automation—abandoned carts, abandoned visits. In terms of the process, I believe there will be more automation in content creation. Language models are becoming increasingly popular and are already integrated into mailing platforms we use. One click can generate content.
I think this will significantly reduce costs and time for companies that can’t afford to build entire marketing departments. But I believe if there were ten more people here, there would be different opinions—that the content isn’t good, doesn’t align with the brand, is cheap, and has no value. I disagree. But sure, let someone review it before sending. Creating content will not take a day but an hour.
What should a report contain as a shop owner, and what should it include?
It should contain the growth or decline of the database size, where people are coming from, what the team or externalist did in that month for the cost I’m paying, what was sent and why, average open rates, click rates, as long as we still have that data, and a combination of numbers from a conversion and revenue perspective. But not from a single source.
We usually don’t rely on just one source of information. Because today, with Google Analytics last-click attribution, the numbers for emailing are quite understated. Meanwhile, if I have an emailing platform like Ecomail, it overestimates significantly. So the report should have at least two sources of information, explaining why it was so. That’s essentially all. I might add a future vision, where we are heading, and what to expect.
Where in the marketing funnel does email marketing appear?
It’s not an acquisition channel. It’s either at the level after the first visit, when there’s already initial contact—emailing can be used as a remarketing channel. Or it can significantly support the relationship with the brand. So if I’m considering buying a product or service and sign up for the newsletter, I start receiving a welcome series introducing the brand. What is more important is the retention aspect of emailing after the first purchase. Because if I have data tracked to some extent and can evaluate customer behavior, whether they buy again and when they do, emailing is very suitable for contacting that person. There’s probably no better channel to connect directly with such a customer.
What are good or dad open rate values?
In the past, you could always find a number indicating that the open rate should be at least 20%. But I never read what database it was sent to. Personally, 20% seems very low. If I send to 100% of the database and 20% opens on average, that’s a problem. If you have proper database hygiene, the number should be much higher. Normally, we have 40, 50, sometimes even 60% open rates on projects.
It’s because I’m stricter with database hygiene. But let’s say, if you need a number, the open rate should be at least 25 to 30%. That’s not a complete disaster. But it’s common that leadership doesn’t have this information and is satisfied with 10% open rates. Then I know there’s a problem. It means emails are going to spam. And the more I do this, the harder it will be to get out of spam. CTR, or click-through rate, the ratio of people who clicked from opened emails, should be around 10 to 15%. That’s a great number. But usually, it ranges from 5 to 15%, depending on the newsletter content.
What would you do with contacts that don’t respond to your campaigns?
We would try to wake them up, and if we can’t, delete them. What does waking up mean? It can be done by creating a manual email campaign with a catchy subject line like “Buy today or miss out tomorrow” (laughs). But be careful, as you’re sending to a segment of people who don’t open emails, so you might end up in the spam filter. Either do it this way, segment the database into smaller parts, and send gradually, or create an automated scenario to do it for you. An automation script checks daily for people who haven’t opened emails for over 150 days and sends them such an email. It waits a week to see if anything changes and tries sending another email. If there’s no response, these are worthless contacts doing more harm than good, and the automation unsubscribes them.
How do you know If you've fallen into the spam filter?
A significant change in your statistics. A sharp drop. Recently, this happened on a project. You’re sending emails with an average open rate of 55%, and suddenly, it’s 9%. That’s when you know it’s a problem. So you find out quite quickly.
How do you resolve it?
There are multiple solutions. You need to show the provider that you’re a trustworthy sender. So you rewarm your domain by sending to only active contacts. Create a campaign with specific characteristics—no images, more text, no spam trigger words like capital letters, exclamation points, discounts, etc. Create neutral content, take the most active database, and gradually send emails. Not all at once but gradually, increasing over time.
So you send the email to 10 people first, then 20 people in two hours. It grows slowly, the email provider notices a sender with decent content, and people open it. This marks you as safe, and you get through next time. But it might not work. You could be on multiple blacklists; your domain might be flagged so heavily it’s hard to get off. In that case, you might buy a new domain or change the email service provider for new IP addresses and start over.
How do you recommend combining different types of emails? What is the optimal sending frequency?
It often depends on the brand’s communication itself. Emailing is just another communication channel, and if the brand has a logical communication strategy with its rules, it can be translated into emailing. If not, we create it anew within the project.
Regarding frequency, if the project hasn’t done email marketing before, we recommend sending at least one newsletter weekly. Not that it’s a magic number, but from a planning perspective, it’s a good number to establish a process. And it’s not too much to annoy people. We usually start with four to five newsletters monthly, one per week.
Content is divided based on the brand’s communication. Some brands regularly have sales; others never do but introduce new products or create their own content. All this can be processed. Typically, out of four emails, two are product-related, one is promotional, and one is informational. Not because it’s the best, but because it helps the client learn the process and get feedback on what works better. Sales and promotions always work best.
What specific times and days are best for sending newsletters? Is it individual based on segments and target audience?
Recommendations suggest sending in the middle of the week during work hours. But we never found a behavioral pattern indicating better or worse times. Saturdays are generally weaker. So it’s more about when not to send—avoid sending at night and on Saturdays. Other days are fine.
During work hours or after?
I don’t see a difference.
Does it make sense to look at the individual level, seeing when they open emails and sending at those times?
Advanced mailing tools track when you open emails and send them accordingly. If a platform offers this, why not use it? It makes sense. But if you’re a brand sending emails twice a month, and the recipient opened it three times in six months randomly, it’s not as significant. Again, it comes down to database hygiene. If you have a well-managed database without robots and non-openers, whether you send Monday morning or Thursday evening, results are roughly the same. Factors like weather and content matter too. Differences exist but require detailed analysis.
Do you use other forms of automated communication?
Email is just one channel. The infrastructure is similar for others, like SMS marketing, WhatsApp marketing, Viber, push notifications, browser push notifications, and in-app notifications. You can also trigger campaigns on the e-shop. For instance, after a conversion, show specific content or change the homepage. Different forms, but essentially the same.
Where do you think email marketing is heading? What major changes will this area face soon?
AI will drastically change this segment. More content will be created as it becomes easier to produce. Campaigns won’t require teams, just one person. It may even change companies like ours. We won’t need to create emails but focus on integrating tools and strategy. Showing clients how to work with these tools. I believe the tools will also provide context for results. Today, someone needs to understand numbers or be a data analyst. In the future, the tool will explain in plain language why a campaign didn’t perform well.
Tools that do this are already in beta, and it works. So I won’t need to call the agency to ask why I had 500 fewer orders from email last month; I can ask the tool with all the data. My phone stops ringing, as clients ask the tool directly, which will give better answers. I'm sure of it.
About the Eshopový kráľ Project
Eshopový kráľ is a community and educational program for ambitious e-shop owners and managers. The goal is to help e-shops increase profitability and competitiveness in the international market over the long term through strategic consultations, networking events, podcasts, and an online community at eshopovykral.sk.
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